Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Arelor on Mon May 30 2022 01:47 pm

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 03:15 pm

You have posted, at least twice that I have noticed, that we must import people and offer them integration training.

If that is not the case then I will drop the argument.

My position is simple: immigration, as a matter of policy, is unavoidable gi the demographic failure of most Western states. If a Western state wishes t avoid the subsequent political failure that often follows demographic failur (including, a collapse in tax base, evisceration in the open competitive marketplace, and potentially even military confrontation from larger and mor competitive/populous nations), it must confront its demographic failure. Immigration, as it stands, is seen by most democratic governments as the mos palatable approach to managing this problem. It is, by no means, the only approach - and, if you live in an authoritarian society, many more options appear on your menu from which governments can select.

If you must import people for demographic purposes - replenishing your decreasing population, maintaining competitiveness in the open marketplace, even just sustaining the native population through the service economic sect - then, governments should be integrating and assimilating these populations Otherwise, they will create significant social and political strife, which eventually defeats whatever perceived economic benefits one may derive from them. In the world today, the United States has the highest success rate at integrating and assimilating these populations, but it certainly does not st alone.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

I think you give governments too much credit if you think they have long term plans to face demographic crisis. My experience is politicians only attempt to solve issues that will apply over their mandate. IMO they are using the demographic crisis as the good sounding excuse for rolling out incentive programs to further their actual political goals (such as shipping foreigners to certain areas or manipulating public opinion).

Also the US is starting to look like a bad example to use since it was literally burning due to unsolved ethnocultural conflicts in what seems three days ago.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 05:37 pm

I think you give governments too much credit if you think they have long term plans to face demographic crisis. My experience is politicians only attempt to solve issues that will apply over their mandate. IMO they are using the demographic crisis as the good sounding excuse for rolling out incentive programs to further their actual political goals (such as shipping foreigners to certain areas or manipulating public opinion).

I think democratic governments are absolutely short-sighted, but do not underestimate how countries are limited by the options presented to them based upon geopolitical realities. Yes, politicians in democracies are mostly interested in re-election, but most democratic states are, practically speaking, coalitions of oligarchies (especially plutocratic ones) which are interested in one thing above all else: continued growth. Geopolitics will drive decision-making and thinking around policies, though politics will often times resemble something very different (especially on cultural issues).

Also the US is starting to look like a bad example to use since it was literally burning due to unsolved ethnocultural conflicts in what seems three days ago.

I think we are in a global period of re-examining democracy as a valid form of government, and if you believe President Xi of China, authoritarian regimes threaten the deliberative, consensus-generating world order with a potentially faster, more agile form of governance. Nevertheless, societal ills can generally only be addressed through deliberation and compromise - factors that authoritarian regimes cannot contend with.

The United States, despite the January 6th Insurrection (wholly manufactured by President Trump and his supporters), and the many social challenges stemming from cultural, racial, and economic tensions (which have endured since our Founding, with episodes from the Civil War to Martin Luther King to Rodney King and now the Black Lives Matter movements), is still a suitable example for several reasons:

1. Despite our divisions and countless contradictions, the United States leverages its economic and political structures to ruthless and devastating effect in order to dominate the competitive landscape for science, technology, defense, and even healthcare.

2. While there is vast inequality in earning power, and the gap between the rich and the poor is reaching another apex similar to the Gilded Age of the 1880s-1920s, the United States is effective at delivering the largest national economy, which it achieves through a patrimonial federal subsidy of all of its critical industries.

3. While there are significant demographic challenges in the United States (with our native birth rates anywhere between 1,700 per 1,000 women to 2,080 per 1,000 women), our permissive immigration system allows our legalized (and visible) population to grow substantially, year-over-year, ensuring we continue to expand our population while concurrently leveraging our institutions and economic systems to attract the brightest talent from throughout the world.

Again, the United States is not alone in its ability to democratically manage its demographic challenges through a variety of tools, while still maintaining social stability in ways that outperform other Western Countries. Britain, Canada, and Australia have achieved similar breakthroughs, with similar socioeconomic and ethnocultural challenges with which they must contend. But these challenges - and the social tensions that they cause - are well worth the benefits that increasing your population and maintaining a competitive edge in the global world order.

I think that as the democracy vs. autocracy ideological debate rages on throughout the world (which is primarily a United States vs. China conflict, with Russia being a useful pawn in this exercise given the Ukraine War), you will see increasing instability in authoritarian governments that lack the means to contend with the social and economic strife that the unilateral "agility" of hierarchical decision-making affords/costs them. You are already seeing the general breakdown of public order, of economic stability, and of general institutional solvency in China due to the "Zero Covid" mandate, for example, which is largely representative of many of Xi's domestic failures stemming from - again - inability to successfully mediate the social, economic, and cultural tensions that run deep within modern Chinese society. Much as the United States has twelve distinct native culture (See: "The American Nations," for a good primer on our immigration / settlre genesis), China has at least five distinct native populations that - unlike in the United States' case - are deeply and violently opposed to one another.

It will lead to a violent and brutal reckoning for China, eventually. I hope that by the time it does, China has a democratic framework with which to mediate the social and ethnocultural divisions. Otherwise, a Civil War is inevitable.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Arelor on Mon May 30 2022 01:47 pm

My position is simple: immigration, as a matter of policy, is unavoidable gi the demographic failure of most Western states. If a Western state wishes t avoid the subsequent political failure that often follows demographic failur (including, a collapse in tax base, evisceration in the open competitive marketplace, and potentially even military confrontation from larger and mor competitive/populous nations), it must confront its demographic failure. Immigration, as it stands, is seen by most democratic governments as the mos palatable approach to managing this problem. It is, by no means, the only approach - and, if you live in an authoritarian society, many more options appear on your menu from which governments can select.

Besides, as mentioned earlier, if you import people with a culture different enough from yours as a solution, your own culture will be extinguished nevertheless unless you assimilate the incomers. Notice I didn't say "integrate". I said "assimilate". This is the core reason why your average nationalist does not buy immigration as a solution.

Some people underestimates greatly how expansive certain cultures are and how defensive their members are regarding those cultures. This is probably because Westerns seem to think the usual Western traditions (based on religion, pagan customes from ages past and whatever have you) are lame and that people from other cultures have the same appreciation for their own culture as Westerns do for theirs. This is kind of dangerous because a single person pushing a cultural agenda is cute but four thousand are a political entity. The Opus Dei is harmless because there are so few of them: if they were 40% of the population chances are you'd live under a Christian Theocracy.

I faced the most utter ridicule recently when I watched an Interview at some representative of a neiughbourhood asociation in Barcelona, regarding Mena gang activity. Barcelona has one of the most progressive autonomic governments in Spain right now. This guy said that the neighbourhood was all inclusive, welcoming and anti-racist, that they loved Moroccans... but that they needed to get the fuck out because the situation was unsustainable and they needed to be placed somewhere where they could be helped.

And this is the problem: a typical Nationalist sees this and thinks that, if one of the autonomic governments who tries the hardest to integrate outsiders is facing this issue, then mass integration tactics are a failure at best and
a scam at worst.

Actually, I think those types have a point, when it comes to certain types of culture. Proponents of mass immigration actually claim they can import massive ammounts of people from countries in which, if you walk around with your 16 years old daughter, you will receive purchase offer for her, and that they can integrate such worldwiew in the core of the Western world in a conflict-free way. My grandparents spent a big chunk of their lives in Africa and they were skepticks towards this idea.

Random thought: why are the pro-feminist parties the ones who are fine
giving incentives to religions and cultures which historically treat women like garbage?



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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: MRO to Boraxman on Mon May 30 2022 05:16 pm

in the news in my state, if they post a story on someone that is arrested and they are white: you get a photo. you get them mentioned as being white several times.

if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. and no mention of race.

Less than 100 miles north of you, it's the opposite.

DaiTengu

... Dead people are cool

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: DaiTengu to MRO on Tue May 31 2022 12:25 am

if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. and no mention of race.

Less than 100 miles north of you, it's the opposite.

DaiTengu

In milwaukee there is a huge problem with black on black crime.

I saw a video of the police chief dancing around with people at some
take back the hood event. Meanwhile black people are killed every day and it gets ignored. it's really sad.

here's some info on our areas:

Appleton Demographics
White: 84.27% Asian: 7.37% Black or African American: 3.36% Two or more races: 2.29%

Milwaukee Demographics
White: 44.35% Black or African American: 38.75% Other race: 7.98% Asian: 4.26%

Whats strange is when i'm out I see mostly black people no matter where I go.
i guess it's because of segregation. The whites are just in certain areas of the county

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: MRO to DaiTengu on Tue May 31 2022 03:18 am

here's some info on our areas:

Appleton Demographics
White: 84.27% Asian: 7.37% Black or African American: 3.36% Two or more races: 2.29%

Milwaukee Demographics
White: 44.35% Black or African American: 38.75% Other race: 7.98% Asian: 4.26%

Appleton was a "Sundown town" up until the late 60s. While it's gotten a lot better, there's still a lot of racism here.

Rumor has it, there used to be a billboard just north of Fond Du Lac that said black people were not welcome north of there. I'm guessing that would have been in the 1940s or so.

DaiTengu

... There's little worse than being peerless in a peer-review system.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: MRO to DaiTengu on Tue May 31 2022 03:18 am

Milwaukee Demographics
White: 44.35% Black or African American: 38.75% Other race: 7.98% Asian: 4.26%

lolno.

The metro area is like 65% white and 15% black.


- Andre

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: DaiTengu to MRO on Tue May 31 2022 07:32 am

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: MRO to DaiTengu on Tue May 31 2022 03:18 am

here's some info on our areas:

Appleton Demographics
White: 84.27% Asian: 7.37% Black or African American: 3.36% Two or more races: 2.29%

Milwaukee Demographics
White: 44.35% Black or African American: 38.75% Other race: 7.98% Asian: 4.26%

Appleton was a "Sundown town" up until the late 60s. While it's gotten a lot better, there's still a lot of racism here.

Rumor has it, there used to be a billboard just north of Fond Du Lac that said black people were not welcome north of there. I'm guessing that would have been in the 1940s or so.

wow that's crazy.

it certainly still has a reputation for being lilly white.
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue May 31 2022 07:22 am

Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-

@MSGID: <6293C53B.27982.dove_dove-deb@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
@REPLY: <6290A9F2.23192.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Dumas Walker on
Fri May 27 2022 08:31 pm

I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" bei European, but not Anglo.

At a company I previously worked at, there was a company-wide meeting where the CEO was talking about current events and news for the company. The topic of diversity in hiring came up, and the CEO mentioned trying to meet the company's goals of hiring diversity candidates (or whatever the term was). Someone in the audience asked a question like what that actually means, and they said they thought it was unfair that the company would make a hiring decision based on someone's ethnic background, or that their ethnic background would give a candidate an advantage over someone of a different ethnicity. The CEO flat out said that there was a rule (or law? I don't remember) that if they had to choose between 2 equally qualified candidates, if one of them is a minority, they would need to hire the minority.

Nightfox

I've observed this too. I was told by a manager at a placed I worked that despite him knowing who the best candidate was, they leaned on him to hire based on 'diversity'. These practises are the clearest examples of literal racism and sexism you can find. Having bad things to say about a particular race or gender may be crude, impolite, mean, but these companies are quite literally ranking people on race and making decisions that affect peoples li on these attributes. A "racist ranter" on a train has less impact.

It is done because it looks favorable on paper to the community and the government.

Several years ago a local radio station was mentioned on the news because it fell within the lower percentile of radio stations in it's progamming format with regards to hiring minorities and overall diversity of employees.

In defense of theirselves, the radio station manager pointet out they had
been under a hiring freeze for that year, so any new employee would be a
direct replacement of another, and no one left the company that year. They also pulled the job application forms for the last five years, and no one considered as a minority had applied. It was at the time a stand alone statio n with one tower and a small building next to it. My guess is 10-15
employees. Album oriented rock, and other than DJ's babysitting an automated system, they had two guys in the morning telling jokes and reading traffic reports and sometimes an afternoon guy that will air calls. The morning guys and afternoon guys were replaced by syndicated radio shows. All the rest
were engineers, admin, or sales folk. They had historically hired all their talen from the local college, so that also narrowed down their choices as to who applied to their communications programs.

They got off the list bottom eventually. They were bought up by a larger broadcast company that kept the transmitter but closed down the office.
They moved everyone into a larger building with all their other affiliates
and laid off whoever they no longer needed. The station format is talk
radio, and nearly every show is syndicated.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 09:51 pm

Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

I think that if you are proposing creating a new state, one organized around racial principles, you have to contend with the very "recognition and reconciliation" that you cite that many on the Right are unwilling to contend with. Without this, much of what you aspire to create - a mono-racial or mono-cultural state - is reliant upon the moral rights of the people who have been exploited to create it (such as the aboriginal peoples of Australia). There is also the inconvenient truth that, both culturally and racially, virtually all peoples in the world are now diverse, and so, you would be imprinting some sort of new or fictitious identity. This is not without complication, or eventual exposure.

This is nonsensical. No one is seeking to "create" anything, but rather to STOP a process.

I would agree that migration policies stem from the need for demographic change, but I disagree that there is some sort of grand racialist conspiracy the likes of which "Great Replacement" theory (a la Renaud and the like) is at work here. It's far simpler: countries, as modern nation-states, succeed or fail largely due to geopolitical factors, namely, the land on which people inhabit, and the people themselves. It comes down to raw resources and sheer numbers. The Third Reich might have triumphed in the Second World War, had it not been vastly outnumbered by the Soviet Russians, who were able to sacrifice over 100 million people to defeat them. It is also for this very reason why countries like Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark, have no valid recourse given their limited geopolitical constraints, other than to be the pawns of greater powers.

The Third Reich would never have triumphed long term because it was based on Great Man (figuratively speaking) and had an unsustainable ideology.

The Third Reich was primarily about the party, not the "race". You would fi yourself in a concentration camp much much faster if you were speaking again the regime, than if you were married to a black person.

The narrative that the war/fight was about racism is a post-hoc rationalise the West to justify demographic changes by leadership. No one back then was stupid enough to conflate the Nazi's specific racial ideas with restricted immigration. That confusion, which you are spreading, came later.

At what point do the British or French get to say that immigration should be curtailed? When they are less then 50%, 40%, 30%?

The "big lie" the Reich was built upon was based on blaming the nation's problems on minority groups with obvious or strong presence. Conspiracy that external ethnic and religious groups were there to contaminate their culture and destroy the nation from the inside.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Arelor on Mon May 30 2022 01:47 pm

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 03:15 pm

You have posted, at least twice that I have noticed, that we must import people and offer them integration training.

If that is not the case then I will drop the argument.

My position is simple: immigration, as a matter of policy, is unavoidable gi apse in tax base, evisceration in the open competitive marketplace, and pote cratic governments as the most palatable approach to managing this problem.

If you must import people for demographic purposes - replenishing your decre d be integrating and assimilating these populations. Otherwise, they will c the highest success rate at integrating and assimilating these populations, _____
-=: Kaelon :=-

This is a generalization, but the upper class families tend to have less kids than the poor families that rely on goverment assistance. Bringing in immigrants from countries that are known to have larger families is a limited strategy. Once they become assimilated into the mainstream culture, the
better off newly naturalized citizens will follow the norm and have less children. Bringing in people in order to bring in more people makes little sense unless they invest and contribute to the system rather than feed off of it.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: MRO to Boraxman on Mon May 30 2022 05:16 pm

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue May 31 2022 07:22 am

I've observed this too. I was told by a manager at a placed I worked tha despite him knowing who the best candidate was, they leaned on him to hir based on 'diversity'. These practises are the clearest examples of liter racism and sexism you can find. Having bad things to say about a particu race or gender may be crude, impolite, mean, but these companies are quit literally ranking people on race and making decisions that affect peoples lives on these attributes. A "racist ranter" on a train has less impact.

in the news in my state, if they post a story on someone that is arrested an

if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description.

i come from a diverse background and half my family is black and my family

This was more noticable during the Obama years. After the Sandy Hook mass shooting, any possible incident was sure to make the news, except for the shooting in New Orleans where 19 participants of a Mother's Day parade were shot and wounded. The two shooters were young black males, and shot at the parade as part of a gang initiation. The rival gang had members marching in the parade with their mothers. Black on black crimes hardly ever made the hea dlines, or if race wasn't mentioned, it implied it was left out on purpose.


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Just in case it is not clear, my general position on this issue is that I am not against immigration per-se but I am against incentivicing it.

+ 1


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if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. a
no mention of race.

That is interesting. Here, they still at least include a photo, if it is a
TV story.


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The United States, despite the January 6th Insurrection (wholly manufactured b
President Trump and his supporters), and the many social challenges stemming f
m cultural, racial, and economic tensions (which have endured since our Foundi
, with episodes from the Civil War to Martin Luther King to Rodney King and no
the Black Lives Matter movements), is still a suitable example for several rea
ns:

You seem to be ignoring the 2020 Summer of Riots, which I think is what the poster was refering to when he mentioned the US being on fire.


* SLMR 2.1a * I'm dangerous when I know what I'm doing.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Tue May 31 2022 04:54 pm

if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. a
no mention of race.

That is interesting. Here, they still at least include a photo, if it is a TV story.

that's how it used to be. but they dont do it anymore in my area in the liberal newspapers.
i have to use another source to find photo and description.
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: DaiTengu to MRO on Tue May 31 2022 07:32 am

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: MRO to DaiTengu on Tue May 31 2022 03:18 am

here's some info on our areas:

Appleton Demographics
White: 84.27% Asian: 7.37% Black or African American: 3.36% Two or more races: 2.29%

Milwaukee Demographics
White: 44.35% Black or African American: 38.75% Other race: 7.98% Asian 4.26%

Appleton was a "Sundown town" up until the late 60s. While it's gotten a lo

Rumor has it, there used to be a billboard just north of Fond Du Lac that sa

DaiTengu

... There's little worse than being peerless in a peer-review system.

Goshen, Indiana was a sundown town. Anderson, Indiana was also a sundown
town.

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Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 09:45 pm

You keep trying to deny there is policy, when clearly, immigration policy, as well as the ideological push towards "diversity" and the "melting pot" is cleary a deliberate goal.

I disagree that this is the goal. You ascribe racialist intent to a demographic policy, because you see the world in racial terms. I see
the world in geopolitical terms, and as I describe elsewhere and here,
the policies we have for immigration are numerical in origin: they are economic and they are demographic. If there were enough White
immigrants, for example, willing to accept the economic and demographic circumstances of immigrating to France or Britain, I assure you, they would be taken.

"Diversity," as a sociopolitical argument, is a way of managing the outcomes of the goal. It's really simple: this is all about numbers.
The largest (i.e., most populous and geographically expansive /
resource rich) nation-states are the most prosperous and powerful on
the planet. Conversely, nation-states with shrinking populations or
with ecologically or geographically challenged circumstances, are
looking at a certain geopolitical destiny as a second-rate (if not subjugated) power.

That's the goal here.
_____
-=: Kaelon :=-

How do you account for those who clearly state that changing demographics will change the character of the nation? How do you account for accusations that someting is "too white"? How do you accont for protests against any other view being "racist".

If one particular view is an "ism", then surely another particular view is as well. You view things through a Geopolitical lens, which is reasonable enough, but at some point we have to step back and say "what for".

I DO take a nationalistic point of view because it is in my self interest to do so, just as it is in self interest of a ruling elite, or a ruling aristocracy, to do what it takes to maintain THEIR power.

The largest states may win, but WHAT wins? There is the issue, the nihilism inherit within the modern so called nation state. The state itself is its own power, its own entity, and represents its own interest, which is decoupled from the people who had created it. The US was founded with the idea that would be for OUR prosperity. Not for the sake of the state itself, but for the benefit of the people who founded it. If not for that, then what?

What value is the UK, or France, or Australia, or the US for that matter, when the only metric, the only judgement of success is the state appartus and the administrative entity? The nation-state become like a corporation, and we become like employees, who only have an interest if we are employed.

This is the pathology here. The nation-state has decoupled from the people who created and built it, and is itself its own meaning. Britains success is no longer the success of the British people, but just the organisations that claim to be "Britain". The state no longer represents a people.

So why should I care if my own country is the biggest, when it has no loyalty to me?

It is irrelevant to me if Australia is successful, if the proposition of Australia no longer represent, or is, what I am. Just as the US become less and less relevant, when it represents, less and less, what Americans are. IT becomes a hollow proposition state, and such states cannot be free, they must become authoritarian. Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether a nation state lives or not. They are artificial constructs anyway. Culture, people, ethnic groups, that which will still persist, THEY are real.

In the West (unlike say, China), we've removed this factor from our analysis, from our worldview. We're purely geo-political, but have defined ourselves out of existence. This is why Chinese *WILL* overtake Americans as a force. There will still be a Chinese nation, but only a hollowed out American empire.

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Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 09:51 pm

This is nonsensical. No one is seeking to "create" anything, but rather to STOP a process.

I think the process is largely unstoppable, not without a real
replacement to the solution to the problem - which I have argued repeatedly is demographic in origin. If Britain were to surpass 2,100 births for every 1,000 women, it would no longer be in demographic
crisis within one generation. China and Korea can impose immigration restrictions because it has a demographic crisis in the other direction
-- too many people, not enough resources to maintain them.

Perpetual population growth is simply not sustainable. We MUST face a new reality, that populations are not going to always increase.

It is expected at some point in this or next century, that this will become the norm. We simply cannot be reliant on alway having above replacement population growth.

The size of the population will wax and wane, but the problem is not the birthrate. It is our inability to adapt to a world with education, birth control, automation and machinery.

The process is not unstoppable. Government policy created it, and government policy can be changed.

But I do issue a warning, I do not believe that things will play out the way people think. The more balkanised the population, the MORE identity politics will come into play.

White people are simply the last to realise that Identity Politics IS the politics of the 21'st century. Idiot conservatives are the ones who are blind to this, as they are still stuck in the 1950's.

This is a new tangent, and I am happy to debate it, but there is vast evidence that shows that the policy of the Third Reich - beyond what it publicly espoused in documentation - was racialist in origin. Every decision made during the Second World War, from electing not to
complete Operation Sea Lion against the British, turn its attention to Russia and the expansive East, or to divert critical manufacturing resources to hasten the shipping of Jews to the concentration camps in
the final year of the war, were all premised upon the real aim - what Himmler would later state "even if we lose, future generations will
laud us for our achievement" - which was to depopulate the continent of non-Aryans. _____
-=: Kaelon :=-

They were racialist, but they were Nazi's before they were racialist. The very fact they were able to kill other Europeans by the hundreds of thousands for their own regime's view of history I think demonstrates where their priorities lie. They killed Eastern Europeans by the millions, who clearly are genetically closer to them than the Japanese they allied with.

Not to mention the Germans they killed, or were willing to sacrifice. The more the war dragged on, the more it seemed that Hitler was willing to sacrifice so much blood for what he believed to be the real cause, manifest destiny. The Germans were supposed to rule, and if they couldn't, they weren't worthy of it and didn't deserve to survive. The people, he saw, were just fodder for an IDEA. Absolute statism! Fascism!

Fascism and this type of statism are completely incompatible with a state which exists for a peoples prosperity. At least when done by Westerners. China for some reason has managed to maintain a Fascist state which hasn't become demographically dysgenic, but I think this is due to a different mindset. Perhaps because they aren't interested in Empire.

The theories of the Third Reich weren't their inventions, but ideas which had been floating around beforehand, some of them quite preposterous (belief in hollow earth, hyperboreans). They misunderstood (or abused) Darwins beliefs and took a more occult/mystical analysis than any scientific or demographic analysis.

My view is that it was a dysgenic mind-virus. It became pathological because it believed that there was an arc of history, a destiny, a particular telos, or end goal. Such ideologies ALWAYS end up pathological and destructive. Communism, Nazism, any ideology which supposes a "right side" and "wrong side" of history, which believes that there is this one outcome which must come about will turn bad, and will twist ideas to justify itself, and the power of those who rule by it.

None of this is related to how wide you hold the gates into your own country. These are seperate things. You will NOT find in your research, accusations against Germany for not wanting to become a multiracial state, or not being diverse. The idea that not embracing the Ben & Jerry's vision of the future makes one therefore a Nazi is a poor application of the slippery slope fallacy, the same as arguing that any liberalisation of sexual mores will lead a retern of pederasty.

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MRO wrote to Boraxman <=-

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue May 31 2022 07:22 am

I've observed this too. I was told by a manager at a placed I worked that despite him knowing who the best candidate was, they leaned on him to hire based on 'diversity'. These practises are the clearest examples of literal racism and sexism you can find. Having bad things to say about a particular race or gender may be crude, impolite, mean, but these companies are quite literally ranking people on race and making decisions that affect peoples lives on these attributes. A "racist ranter" on a train has less impact.

in the news in my state, if they post a story on someone that is
arrested and they are white: you get a photo. you get them mentioned
as being white several times.

if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. and no mention of race.

i come from a diverse background and half my family is black and my family are immigrants. so fuck people telling me how to talk. ---

Yeah, when the descriptions are conspiciously vague, you know. Or the tried and tested "youths"... I like that one, "youths" that are 28 years old.

It's the same problem here in Australia. The truth has be be reported in a way so that people don't actually figure out what the truth is.

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Moondog wrote to Boraxman <=-

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Nightfox on Tue May 31 2022 07:22 am

Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-

@MSGID: <6293C53B.27982.dove_dove-deb@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
@REPLY: <6290A9F2.23192.dove-deb@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Dumas Walker on
Fri May 27 2022 08:31 pm

I've meant to ask my companies HR team whether I count as "Diverse" bei European, but not Anglo.

At a company I previously worked at, there was a company-wide meeting where the CEO was talking about current events and news for the company. The topic of diversity in hiring came up, and the CEO mentioned trying to meet the company's goals of hiring diversity candidates (or whatever the term was). Someone in the audience asked a question like what that actually means, and they said they thought it was unfair that the company would make a hiring decision based on someone's ethnic background, or that their ethnic background would give a candidate an advantage over someone of a different ethnicity. The CEO flat out said that there was a rule (or law? I don't remember) that if they had to choose between 2 equally qualified candidates, if one of them is a minority, they would need to hire the minority.

Nightfox

I've observed this too. I was told by a manager at a placed I worked that despite him knowing who the best candidate was, they leaned on him to hire based on 'diversity'. These practises are the clearest examples of literal racism and sexism you can find. Having bad things to say about a particular race or gender may be crude, impolite, mean, but these companies are quite literally ranking people on race and making decisions that affect peoples li on these attributes. A "racist ranter" on a train has less impact.

It is done because it looks favorable on paper to the community and the government.

Several years ago a local radio station was mentioned on the news
because it fell within the lower percentile of radio stations in it's progamming format with regards to hiring minorities and overall
diversity of employees.

In defense of theirselves, the radio station manager pointet out they
had been under a hiring freeze for that year, so any new employee would
be a direct replacement of another, and no one left the company that
year. They also pulled the job application forms for the last five
years, and no one considered as a minority had applied. It was at the time a stand alone statio n with one tower and a small building next to it. My guess is 10-15 employees. Album oriented rock, and other than DJ's babysitting an automated system, they had two guys in the morning telling jokes and reading traffic reports and sometimes an afternoon
guy that will air calls. The morning guys and afternoon guys were replaced by syndicated radio shows. All the rest were engineers,
admin, or sales folk. They had historically hired all their talen
from the local college, so that also narrowed down their choices as to
who applied to their communications programs.

They got off the list bottom eventually. They were bought up by a
larger broadcast company that kept the transmitter but closed down the office. They moved everyone into a larger building with all their other affiliates and laid off whoever they no longer needed. The station
format is talk radio, and nearly every show is syndicated.

Here is the thing. This looks good for what reason? For IDEOLOGICAL reasons!

What do such intitiatives serve? They serve ideologies. If our country were run for our interests, you wouldn't see such ideas. So we live in a state where ideological interests trump our own interests.


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Moondog wrote to Boraxman <=-

Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Mon May 30 2022 09:51 pm

Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

I think that if you are proposing creating a new state, one organized around racial principles, you have to contend with the very "recognition and reconciliation" that you cite that many on the Right are unwilling to contend with. Without this, much of what you aspire to create - a mono-racial or mono-cultural state - is reliant upon the moral rights of the people who have been exploited to create it (such as the aboriginal peoples of Australia). There is also the inconvenient truth that, both culturally and racially, virtually all peoples in the world are now diverse, and so, you would be imprinting some sort of new or fictitious identity. This is not without complication, or eventual exposure.

This is nonsensical. No one is seeking to "create" anything, but rather to STOP a process.

I would agree that migration policies stem from the need for demographic change, but I disagree that there is some sort of grand racialist conspiracy the likes of which "Great Replacement" theory (a la Renaud and the like) is at work here. It's far simpler: countries, as modern nation-states, succeed or fail largely due to geopolitical factors, namely, the land on which people inhabit, and the people themselves. It comes down to raw resources and sheer numbers. The Third Reich might have triumphed in the Second World War, had it not been vastly outnumbered by the Soviet Russians, who were able to sacrifice over 100 million people to defeat them. It is also for this very reason why countries like Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Denmark, have no valid recourse given their limited geopolitical constraints, other than to be the pawns of greater powers.

The Third Reich would never have triumphed long term because it was based on Great Man (figuratively speaking) and had an unsustainable ideology.

The Third Reich was primarily about the party, not the "race". You would fi yourself in a concentration camp much much faster if you were speaking again the regime, than if you were married to a black person.

The narrative that the war/fight was about racism is a post-hoc rationalise the West to justify demographic changes by leadership. No one back then was stupid enough to conflate the Nazi's specific racial ideas with restricted immigration. That confusion, which you are spreading, came later.

At what point do the British or French get to say that immigration should be curtailed? When they are less then 50%, 40%, 30%?

The "big lie" the Reich was built upon was based on blaming the
nation's problems on minority groups with obvious or strong presence. Conspiracy that external ethnic and religious groups were there to contaminate their culture and destroy the nation from the inside.

Jews specifically, then Slavs. They didn't blame everyone who wasn't German.

Scapegoats are commonly used, but the fact that they used a "race" as a scapegoat is of secondary importance. They could have used "Communists" (they did), or "liberals", or even "white nationalists" or "racists" or "conservatives" as their scapegoat. The only thing that matters is it serves their end goals.

Communists had their scapegoats. They blamed "wreckers" and "counter revolutionaries" and killed millions for their failings. Stalin killed more than Hitler after all. Mao as well.

Our mistake is thinking that any expression of self interest will lead to scapegoating, which is a misunderstanding of power politics. The danger isn't self-interest, the danger is bad ideology.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Dumas Walker to KAELON on Tue May 31 2022 04:56 pm

You seem to be ignoring the 2020 Summer of Riots, which I think is what the poster was refering to when he mentioned the US being on fire.

I am definitely not ignoring the Black Lives Matter movement, of which the 2020 "Summer of Riots" was an episode. It's just that BLM is part of an American tradition of dealing with its origins as a Slave Nation. We've been having race riots since before the Civil War, and they happen very predictably every 5-7 years.

Despite the media hysteria around it, race relations between non-Blacks and Blacks in the United States aren't deteriorating. They're just not getting much better, and it is part of our national reckoning. It is challenging to assimilate a population that was kidnapped here from a distant land and enslaved for domestic and agrarian servitude. But it will eventually be done, and when done properly, it will forever change the character of the United States.
_____
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Re: Geopolitics
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Wed Jun 01 2022 08:24 pm

How do you account for those who clearly state that changing demographics will change the character of the nation? How do you account for accusations that someting is "too white"? How do you accont for protests against any other view being "racist".

I don't really perpetuate the social aprobrium over the term "racialist," because while I certainly understand that it leads down a path of exclusionary violence (and it is, in my opinion, inescapable for racialists to themselves turn to force in order to enact their agenda), I don't necessarily think this
in and of itself is a bad thing. It is, however, racialist - and it's important to call it out for what it is. Your core argument is that the national character of a country is aligned to the ethnic composition of its current dominant race (namely, "Whites," as you have identified them). That is a racialist perspective, as opposed to the overwhelmingly dominant perspective of most Western nation-states, which is not racialist, but corporatist (and you alude to this point later, which I also agree with).

If one particular view is an "ism", then surely another particular view is as well. You view things through a Geopolitical lens, which is reasonable enough, but at some point we have to step back and say "what for".

I DO take a nationalistic point of view because it is in my self interest

to
do so, just as it is in self interest of a ruling elite, or a ruling aristocracy, to do what it takes to maintain THEIR power.

So in your view, your personal self interest is aligned with the self interest of your race? And that other races are inherently a threat to your self interest, because they will "change the character" of your country?

The largest states may win, but WHAT wins? There is the issue, the nihilism inherit within the modern so called nation state. The state itself is its own power, its own entity, and represents its own interest, which is decoupled from the people who had created it. The US was founded with the idea that would be for OUR prosperity. Not for the sake of the state itself, but for the benefit of the people who founded it. If not for that, then what?

In all fairness - and this is not a popular view, but it is the truth - the United States was founded as a merchant republic for trading companies (literally, the ancestors of today's 'corporations') to be able to operate geopolitically without impunity by the British Crown. Yes, the British Crown's general incompetence and financial mismanagement of the Colonies made the argument for independence easier, but the United States was a different "culture" (or, really, 12 different cultures - see, again, "American Nations") all based upon the 12 different settler companies that colonized the Americas. It was never designed to be a racialist state - to the contrary, its origins were to welcome peoples of all origins, so long as they were prepared to contribute with their labor and talents to the various companies and, later, corporations that made up the American states.

This is in stark contrast to the other Nation-States of Europe, which were entities created around a single specific culture. That is not the case for
the United States, for Australia (to an extent), and today, for the European Union, all of whom exist primarily for corporate financial interests.

What value is the UK, or France, or Australia, or the US for that matter, when the only metric, the only judgement of success is the state appartus and the administrative entity? The nation-state become like a corporation, and we become like employees, who only have an interest if we are employed.

I don't think the State has much value in the Anglo-Saxon tradition today; it is simply an administrative means for the corporate end. Corporations in the United States, United Kingdom, and Australia (to a lesser extent), are the dominant political players that drive the policies of their governments. And this is precisely how these governments were built: to represent the elite through the machinery of elections that favored incumbency, prioritized established hierarchies, and necessarily favored wealthy people over the poor.

This is the pathology here. The nation-state has decoupled from the people who created and built it, and is itself its own meaning. Britains success is no longer the success of the British people, but just the organisations that claim to be "Britain". The state no longer represents a people.

The term "pathology" suggests that something is going poorly here. I disagree; this is precisely the plan. The United States, the United Kingdom, the
European Union, and most "western" states are now well into multiple generations of institution-building to create the so called "Australia, Inc." or "Britain, Inc." In essence, creating a global trading power coupled with the military and industrial resources necessary to support the commercial projection of these entities, is the plan.

So why should I care if my own country is the biggest, when it has no loyalty to me?

Your country was never loyal to you. You are clinging to a populist idea that has never, institutionally, really existed. If it did, then the political system would have been totally different. Rather than a representative parliamentary democracy, Australia could have / should have had a meritocratic oligarchy favoring native-born Australians over non-native born outsiders. Constitutionally, Australia is organized for the benefit of revenue. Much like the United Kingdom, the United States, and increasingly, the European Union.

It is irrelevant to me if Australia is successful, if the proposition of Australia no longer represent, or is, what I am. Just as the US become less and less relevant, when it represents, less and less, what Americans are.
IT becomes a hollow proposition state, and such states cannot be free, they must become authoritarian. Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether a nation state lives or not. They are artificial constructs anyway. Culture, people, ethnic groups, that which will still persist, THEY are real.

Culture exists, there is no doubt, in the minds of the people who recognize them. There is also the dangerous - and yet vital - conversation about how people from different regions of the world develop biological traits and characteristics, passed through generations, that favor certain geographic dispositions. But these cultural constructs aren't reflected in any modern nation-state, not even China (see below).

In the West (unlike say, China), we've removed this factor from our analysis, from our worldview. We're purely geo-political, but have defined ourselves out of existence. This is why Chinese *WILL* overtake Americans as a force. There will still be a Chinese nation, but only a hollowed out American empire.

I think this is grossly inaccurate. China is really five different and distinct cultures forced together through brutal ideology; all five of these cultures are deeply and violently opposed to one another. Ask a Cantonese merchant what he really thinks of a Beijing administrator, and you will see
just one of the many examples. When you compare the Han Chinese, vs. Shianghai, vs. Western Chinese, and all of these various other cultures, you will see that - were it not for the brutal authoritarian Communist Party -
these regions of China would have all split apart and become different states, with each their own value systems.

Additionally, China lacks the geopolitical resources to meaningfully displace the United States. Yes, it has population - but its population is in demographic crisis: it is too large, and also (thanks to the failed authoritarian dictate of the "One Child Policy") perilously unbalanced in favor of too many men this generation. In the rural and suburban countryside of China, with just a few percentage points difference between the number of men and women, there are forced marriages, kidnappings, and rapes that run rampant across society because of a generation of men who, numerically, will become involuntarily celibate (not because of choice, but simply because of numbers). There are countless examples of the demographic crisis. But the real problem
is less demographics (because policies can address the demographic imbalance), but the geography.

More than 75% of China is impassible, useless terrain. Conversely, the only usable terrain of China is densely overpopulated, seriously over-mined, and increasingly boxed in by Japan, South Korea, India, and the United States. It is partly for that reason that the Communist Party feels so threatened by the "Big Four" and multinational institutions - because it isn't seen as a reliable / transparent and accountable corporate partner, and because it is being checked. But more importantly, it doesn't have very many good options to respond.

Yes, China will continue to grow and may, eventually, overtake the United States from a raw revenue perspective, given its vast population. But as a geopolitical power, China is trapped as a regional great power, at best, and
its ambitions as a superpower are limited by its unfortunate position on our planet - a fact it will try to remedy by constructing islands, invading other countries, and potentially eventually sparking a Third World War.

See: https://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/06/the-island-of-china/

_____
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Dumas Walker on Wed Jun 01 2022 08:52 am

I am definitely not ignoring the Black Lives Matter movement, of which the 2 "Summer of Riots" was an episode. It's just that BLM is part of an American tradition of dealing with its origins as a Slave Nation. We've been having race riots since before the Civil War, and they happen very predictably ever 5-7 years.

I guess it is a tradition as respectable as slowly slicing a bull to death in a public arena and calling it bullfighting, or driving dolphins into a gulf and massacring them with sledgehammers to the point the waters get so red you d think the Cannae Battle has happened there four times in five minutes.

Being traditional does not mean something is defensible. That is, if you manage to convince anybody that it is traditional to begin with XD

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Wed Jun 01 2022 08:52 pm

Perpetual population growth is simply not sustainable. We MUST face a new reality, that populations are not going to always increase.

It is expected at some point in this or next century, that this will become the norm. We simply cannot be reliant on alway having above replacement population growth.

The size of the population will wax and wane, but the problem is not the birthrate. It is our inability to adapt to a world with education, birth control, automation and machinery.

The process is not unstoppable. Government policy created it, and government policy can be changed.

A couple of thoughts on this:

1. The United States and Australia are two perfect examples of countries that have the geographic advantages of vast natural resources, and a miniscule population to harvest those resources, to maximize their geopolitical potential. So, at least for the U.S. and Australia, increasing population - not decreasing it - has to be the geopolitical norm, because this will allow you to tap the full potential of your country.

2. Urbanization, as a consequence of the military industrialization of national economies (largely a post-war phenomenon), resulted in the broad realignment of culture in the United States - away from the agrarian, large-family ethos, towards the urban, smaller-family ethos - and it directly paired with a higher standard of living. In order to move away from this demographic crisis - which results in lower birth rates because of how people live, work, and play - we need to radically change how people live, work, and play. The Pandemic helped initiate (or accelerate, depending upon which sociologist you consult) a broad re-examination of the balance between work and life, one which had not really been examined since the Middle Ages - when tradespeople worked in a place nominally distinct from where they lived, and used time-tracking (thanks to the emergence of the clock) as a way to commoditize their lifespan, rather than live more holistically by daylight vs. nighttime hours. To achieve what you propose, we need to reinvent society to the pre-Middle Ages state, and perhaps examine a Roman era where people lived lives more fully and integrated. However, I think the boat has largely sailed on this question, given that the modern nation-state is, in effect, a corporation that maximizes the value of its government through the extraction of revenues from its population, resources, and the trade that it can produce.

A reimagining of society in this way can either be gradual and profound -- the way the United States seems to be embarking on this, with great pains, whereby cultural conservatives are re-examining previously settled constructs, like birth control and the autonomy of a woman's body and role in society -- or sudden and extremely violent. It is my general view that we won't see a solution in our lifetimes, because just as the post-Renaissaince world order in Europe could only be reimagined through the colonization of the New World and the demographic and geopolitical challenges that this posed, I do believe that our current planetary "world order" of corporatist revenue maximization (constant growth, constant expansion) will only be checked by a reimagined way of living and producing value. The Colonization of Mars, or another planet, or possibly the seas below, may spur such a moment.
_____
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Arelor to Kaelon on Wed Jun 01 2022 01:27 pm

I guess it is a tradition as respectable as slowly slicing a bull to death in a public arena and calling it bullfighting, or driving dolphins into a gulf and massacring them with sledgehammers to the point the waters get so red you d think the Cannae Battle has happened there four times in five minutes.

Being traditional does not mean something is defensible. That is, if you manage to convince anybody that it is traditional to begin with XD

Because there is no national consensus on the integration of the formerly enslaved African American population into mainstream American Society -- and the lack of this consensus demonstrates itself given the constant alternation between extremely progressive engagement of African Americans in all spheres of political, econonic, and social life; vs. the continuation of the brutally enslaving prison-industrial system, that extracts labor from imprisoned African Americans, who are often coerced or conditioned into lives of crime by the circumstances deemed societally preferable -- I think we're likely to see a continuation of this re-examination for generations to come.

Again, this is not a popular perspective, but to somehow suggest that things are getting worse, is to turn a blind eye to the entire history of the American Republic as deeply racist, enslaving, imperial, and corporatist, as a basic fundamental question of our existence.
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if the person is black: no photo. no description! seriously, no description. a
no mention of race.

That is interesting. Here, they still at least include a photo, if it is a
TV story.

that's how it used to be. but they dont do it anymore in my area in the libe
l newspapers.
i have to use another source to find photo and description.

One thing I have noticed with the mass shootings lately is that they fall
out of the news a lot faster if the shooter is not a white male. The Texas
one may turn out to be an exception because the shooter was practically a
kid, and nearly all the victims were kids.

But I noticed the recent Buffalo shooting, where the shooter is white, has stayed in the news while two other recent shootings (where the shooter was not white) quickly fell out. I had actually forgotten about one of them until
I heard a preacher mention it alongside Texas and Buffalo.

It is difficult for the press, and especially certain politicians, to push
a "white supremacy" problem when the persons doing the shooting are
starting to turn not white.


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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Dumas Walker on Wed Jun 01 2022 08:52 am

Despite the media hysteria around it, race relations between non-Blacks and Blacks in the United States aren't deteriorating. They're just not getting much better, and it is part of our national reckoning.

Things appear worse, but we have social networks amplifying incident response nowadays. Admittedly, I haven't looked at the stats to see if the number of incidents is increasing or not and there's a good possibility that I'm way off base.

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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Dumas Walker to MRO on Wed Jun 01 2022 04:56 pm

But I noticed the recent Buffalo shooting, where the shooter is white, has stayed in the news while two other recent shootings (where the shooter was not white) quickly fell out. I had actually forgotten about one of them until
I heard a preacher mention it alongside Texas and Buffalo.

yeah, that one where it was a graduation party and the woman stopped the shooter with her handgun was almost invisible.
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Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Kaelon on Wed Jun 01 2022 04:56 pm

Things appear worse, but we have social networks amplifying incident response nowadays. Admittedly, I haven't looked at the stats to see if the number of incidents is increasing or not and there's a good possibility that I'm way off base.

I would agree with you. Even before social media, cable news and the 24-hour non-stop news cycle generated, in essence, sensationalism, entertainment-as-information (or "infotainment"), and amplification of stories that were really fairly typical. They needed to fill air time, after all. Former NJ Senator Bill Bradley (D) wrote a great book about this in 1999, forecasting that the emergence of infotainment and the coming storm of the Internet would forever eradicate moderation, the search for truth, and lead to a much more polarized, artificially camp-driven mindset across America.

Joe Trippi, Howard Dean's Campaign Manager, also wrote in 2003 in his book, "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised," that the Internet had taken the average attention span of audiences from about 30 minutes closer to 2 min 30 sec. He also concluded that the news cycle had been shortened from 72 hours (from event to completion of reporting and readiness to move on to the next stop) to about 3-6 hours, thanks in large part to blogs and websites (and later, though not in his book, Twitter would be seen as a major aggrivating and complicating factor).

Today, emphasis on news being timely ("now" or "live"), relevant (properly taxonomized and trending), and actionable (sharable, and to use Malcolm Gladwell's critique of digital democracy, "weak ties" activitism-enabled) has led to non-news being reported as newsworthy, and given birth to fake news and machines of propaganda that cannot even keep up with generating enough falsehoods to meet the reader demand. It's a sad and troubling state of affairs for democracy.
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Things appear worse, but we have social networks amplifying incident response wadays. Admittedly, I haven't looked at the stats to see if the number of inci
nts is increasing or not and there's a good possibility that I'm way off base.

I don't think you are too far off base.


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But I noticed the recent Buffalo shooting, where the shooter is white, has stayed in the news while two other recent shootings (where the shooter was not white) quickly fell out. I had actually forgotten about one of them until
I heard a preacher mention it alongside Texas and Buffalo.

yeah, that one where it was a graduation party and the woman stopped the shoot
with her handgun was almost invisible.

There was one at a church, too, where they subdued the gunman.


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On 5/28/22 10:16 AM, Kaelon wrote:

1. Improve demographic and economic conditions for its native
population, to get to at least 2,100 births per 1,000 people.
Most of the West is well below basic replacement figures, and
is reliant upon immigration to meet basic population economic
needs.

Why does any given nation need to even maintain its' population?

Especially if you consider automation, quality of life and other impacts
of an ever increasing population.
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Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Tracker1 to Kaelon on Fri Jun 03 2022 09:02 pm

Why does any given nation need to even maintain its' population?

Especially if you consider automation, quality of life and other impacts
of an ever increasing population.

Nations that have untapped natural resources and plenty of geographic advantages have not yet reached population saturation, and should continue to grow to maximize productivity, tax revenues, and development.

Furthermore, geopolitically, this is ultimately a numbers game. Russia's population has been steadily shrinking and Ukraine's population has been steadily growing; this has led to a dramatic shift and imbalance in geopolitical power between the two, and it was one of the many factors that led Vladimir Putin to elect to invade this year. Because by next year, he'd lose the geopolitical capability to launch an invasion and sustain it against the Ukrainian people. But because Ukraine had continued growing, developing, and expanding - especially after 2014 - Russia encountered a far more developed, populous, and capable opponent.

This should be a good reminder of how, at the end of it all, it does come down to numbers.
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-=: Kaelon :=-

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Kaelon wrote to Tracker1 <=-

Russia's population has been steadily shrinking and Ukraine's
population has been steadily growing; this has led to a dramatic shift
and imbalance in geopolitical power between the two, and it was one of
the many factors that led Vladimir Putin to elect to invade this year.

That theory would be supported by the number of Ukrainian citizens alleged
to have been exfiltrated to Russia - over 200,000?




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Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Kaelon on Sun Jun 05 2022 08:11 am

That theory would be supported by the number of Ukrainian citizens alleged to have been exfiltrated to Russia - over 200,000?

Exactly. Wiping out Ukraine's culture is the ideological necessity behind what is basically a numerical problem that Russia will solve by kidnapping, brainwashing, and "Russifying" hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians.
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Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Jun 05 2022 04:24 pm

Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Kaelon on Sun Jun 05 2022 08:11 am

That theory would be supported by the number of Ukrainian citizens alleged to have been exfiltrated to Russia - over 200,000?

Exactly. Wiping out Ukraine's culture is the ideological necessity behind what is basically a numerical problem that Russia will solve by kidnapping, brainwashing, and "Russifying" hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians.
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-=: Kaelon :=-

Where are these reports of exfiltration coming from?

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Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Wed Jun 08 2022 06:45 pm

Where are these reports of exfiltration coming from?

If you research reports, you will see that the United States, NATO, and even the Russians themselves, confirm the strategy of exfiltrating the Ukrainian population. The United Nations has put the official death-count at ~4,000 civilians so far, but both Ukraine and Russia have confirmed tens of thousands of deaths on each side (with Russia acknowledging it is suffering far heavier losses from its botched invasion of Ukraine), and over 4 million refugees, at least 1 million of which were "forcibly relocated" into Russia.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me that Russia is looking to un-make Ukraine. But it will assuredly fail.
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Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Thu Jun 09 2022 12:55 pm

If you research reports, you will see that the United States, NATO, and even the Russians themselves, confirm the strategy of exfiltrating the Ukrainian population. The United Nations has put the official death-count at ~4,000 civilians so far, but both Ukraine and Russia have confirmed tens of thousands of deaths on each side (with Russia acknowledging it is suffering far heavier losses from its botched invasion of Ukraine), and over 4 million refugees, at least 1 million of which were "forcibly relocated" into Russia.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me that Russia is looking to un-make Ukraine. But it will assuredly fail.
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-=: Kaelon :=-

The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.

One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.

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Kaelon wrote to Boraxman <=-

Seems pretty cut and dry to me that Russia is looking to un-make
Ukraine. But it will assuredly fail. _____

But at what cost to Ukraine, and the world? Ukraine's harvested wheat is dissapearing into Russia, and future harvests are in jeopardy.

Even if Russia loses, Ukraine loses too.

I'd love to see reparations, but I'm not optimistic.


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Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-

The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering
how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.

One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.

9 years? That's how long they were in Afghanistan.


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Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Boraxman on Fri Jun 10 2022 08:02 am

Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-

The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering
how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.

One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.

9 years? That's how long they were in Afghanistan.

I don't think they'll stop there. The "Rules Based Order" is at war with Russia and China and perhaps other allies.

We're the new empire the world is fighting against.

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Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Boraxman on Fri Jun 10 2022 08:02 am

Boraxman wrote to Kaelon <=-

The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering
how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.

One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.

9 years? That's how long they were in Afghanistan.

... Would you like to go back?

i would not fuck with the russians. they are way too smart.
usa should stay out of it.
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Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Fri Jun 10 2022 08:38 pm

The high number of Russian losses is quite staggering, considering how quickly they were able to sieze territory at the start of the invasion.

One has to wonder how far they will be willing to escalate.

Agreed. There is a lot of scholarship inside of Russia's own military academies detailing that they do not believe they have the manpower capabilities to even make further significant advances, and given the Ukrainian army's resilience at defending and recapturing their territory, I think it's only a matter of time before Russia feels humiliated enough to justify nuclear solutions to their people problems.
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Re: Re: Great Replacement Theory
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Kaelon on Fri Jun 10 2022 08:01 am

But at what cost to Ukraine, and the world? Ukraine's harvested wheat is dissapearing into Russia, and future harvests are in jeopardy.

Even if Russia loses, Ukraine loses too.

I'd love to see reparations, but I'm not optimistic.

Certainly the West is getting nervous because it is increasingly looking like a total humiliation for Russia, and there isn't a path for Russia to have even a surface-level "victory" to bow out of this conflict. Ukraine is poised to retake Donbas and even eject Russia from Crimea. But before this happens, Russia will assuredly move towards a nuclear solution.

I suspect that this plays out with a settlement, both with Ukraine and internally in Russia. President Putin's gamble has been catastrophic, and it is clear (and confirmed) that he has terminal cancer, so I think it's likely (given the Russia M.O. in situations like this) that he will be "relocated to a hospital," and some lieutenant (probably Medvedev, at this stage, given the incompetence of Shiogu's management as Min. of Defense) will be tapped to end this war, reconcile with the West, and figure out how to salvage some semblance of Russia's reputation.

But it will be ugly.
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